Julie Kratz, a renowned expert in allyship, discusses strategies for fostering inclusive leadership and engaging those who are persuadable but uncertain.
What does it mean to be an ally in today’s polarized world? How do we move the needle on inclusion when so many seem resistant—or simply uncertain—about diversity, equity, and inclusion?
In this insightful interview, Julie Kratz, a renowned expert in allyship, discusses strategies for fostering inclusive leadership and engaging those who are persuadable but uncertain.
Julie’s approach is refreshingly pragmatic. She acknowledges the political headwinds facing DEI, but insists that most people are neither naysayers nor champions—they’re in what she calls the “magic middle.” Our conversation explored how to engage this persuadable group, the importance of addressing fears, and taking meaningful action to create lasting change.
Julie Kratz is a highly regarded thought leader and expert in allyship and inclusive leadership. After 12 years in corporate America, often as the only woman in the room, she pivoted to coaching and training leaders on inclusion. As the founder of Next Pivot Point, she dedicates her career to helping individuals and organizations build better relationships and foster inclusive environments.
Julie 00:10
“I started my career in corporate America and like a lot of earnest young people, I thought I was going to change the world. I was raised by a single mom that told me that feminism had solved all the problems for women and the workplace was equal now. And as you can imagine, when I entered the workplace in the early 2000s, my experience was different than what I thought it was going to be.”
She goes on to describe working in male-dominated industries and ultimately leaving because “the success wasn't fulfilling without feeling included.”
Julie 01:30
“Fast forward to today, 10 years doing this work on allyship and DEI and inclusion. You know, we're in a fraught time where all the indicators say that we need to keep focusing on this work. But sadly, political indicators are indicating otherwise, at least for now. But I really believe we need our allies now more than ever, especially those with power.”
Jean 05:23
“Okay, so let's just stop right here. What you just said is so provocative. I have arguments with people. Is it fear or is it meanness?”
Julie 05:37
“Well, there is some meanness. I don't want to be naive. There are mean-spirited people, but what the research.... a recent study, a 2024 study, shows that of the general population, especially dominant group members, that 10% of the naysayers might be the meanish people, 48% are kind of in the middle, they're persuadables ... I call them the magic middle.”
Julie 08:31
“For the naysayers, the 10%. That's probably true. You can't want it for those people. And I think spending our time on a non persuadable group is just a bad use of time. ... One of the strongest human connections is relationships. The longest happiness attitudinal study was done at Harvard. And they found that the people that live the longest, the key ingredient, not health or exercise, or it was relationships with people and allyship is about relationships.”
Jean 09:47
“That takes me to another thing that's very relevant to this. I have clients who say I'll never speak to my sister again as long as she votes that way. Or I'm no longer talking to my father when I found out how he voted. What do you say to people who have that attitude?”
Julie 10:10
“I know. I feel it too. I think the first thing is don't make assumptions. ... It's very fair to draw boundaries if someone did vote in a way that's against your values. Having boundaries around that is really healthy.”
Jean 11:49
“You’re saying protect yourself, which means if you just can't stand it….I'm trying to operationalize protect yourself. What does that look like?”
Julie 12:01
“I mean, for me, and for those I interviewed for my new book about allyship, it's really about knowing your values, knowing the values that are non-negotiable for you, grounding yourself in those values. ...
I also think like knowing when to hit pause. ... When it starts to bubble up, you can't think clearly, pause, timeout. Like we need to come back to this, too, because these conversations, right, there's not a one and done like there's going to have to be multiple iterative conversations to move this forward.”
Julie 18:31
“I couple of years ago there was a local school board election ... I volunteered at the polling district ... stationed alongside somebody of the other political ... basically anti-DEI ... three long hours ...
“And at hour one, I'm like, I am NOT talking to this person ... But after 20 minutes I picked up on a few things ... I just said I think we're doing our kids a disservice if we don't teach them about inclusion in a most certain diverse and hopefully inclusive world someday. These are skills that they need to be competitive, to be, to survive.
“And he kind of looks at me and he's like, I'd never thought about it that way. ... No minds were changed that day. But at the end, I'll never forget it—at the end of my shift he turned to me, gave me a firm handshake and said, I've never met anyone like you before. Glad we met.
“And I'll take that as a win... It's hard to hate someone like me when you know someone like me.”
Jean 22:55
“From the stages of change standpoint, you stopped at exactly the right point. It's cognitive dissonance. ... That was what needed to happen. Now he can go home and think and learn instead of expecting him to learn all of it right then in that one little conversation. That's a total win to me.”
Julie 23:50
“It wasn't easy. I failed at so many of those conversations over the years. That's just one that seemed to work. And you're right. It is the cognitive dissonance. You can't keep hammering somebody when they're in a state of I thought this. And now I think this. Our brains can't process.
“I later read a book by Monica Guzman called I've Never Thought of It That Way. She has a TED Talk called Curiosity Will Save Us All. ... Monica's work and Braver Angels and her TED Talk—it’s a great curriculum to understand that concept more.”
Julie 31:54
“I think the conversation starts with somebody that cares about somebody enough to say, Hey, I see something in you. I see something new—whatever it is. You're really good at project management, or I really loved that client presentation.
“I see something new from a behavior perspective, and it starts with appreciating that behavior.
“And then maybe it opens the window, opens the door to a deeper conversation around, Hey, there's something I'm really interested in. Here's a book, a tool, a thing I've been working on, and I would love for you to be engaged in this.
“I see you as an incredible ally or mentor—whatever word you want to use—and just open up the door to that conversation and see how willing they are to join.”
Jean 32:44
“Okay, so you're talking about—I'm used to the word recruiting an ally. So the way to—there's another word that begins with an E that I can't think of. Okay, recruiting an ally, enrolling. Yes.”
Julie 33:00
“Yeah, maybe that's a better word. Or engaging.”
Jean 33:03
“Enrolling, engaging. Okay, so we start off with why I'm talking to you. What are your concerns in this area, in this area—or concerns generally?”
Julie 33:21
“Which one? I think find the avenue that's most appropriate. If you want to start big—inclusion or allyship, whatever word you want to use to open the door—if you want to be really specific, I usually find that approach to be better.
“Create a bridge through something specific you observed or something that you saw in this person—not to stroke their ego, but just to kind of meet them where they're at and help them understnd how those actions build downstream. Exactly—meet them where they're at.
“And people need encouragement right now. I know I feel like, Really? Do I have to encourage everybody? I need encouragement, too. But we've always needed them, and we really need them right now.
“Jean, if I had to break it down into action steps, it would be:
Find some common ground—just something, an avenue or topic, something that happened to start the conversation.
A clear—I hate to say it this way—but a clear ask, like Here's what I'd love to see more from you: I'd love for you to mentor other people that are different than you. I'd love for you to be at our employee resource group events. I would love it if you sponsored other folks in the organization.
And just listen. Listen to their perspective and see if they would be willing to engage.
“Most people, when they're asked in a way that fits their strengths and skill set and what they're interested in doing—they're probably going to say yes. And if they don't, that's okay too.”
Jean 35:01
“Now, Julie, this is going to sound very strange, but it never, ever occurred to me to do this—ask an ask. Not as a philosophical discussion about the politics of the day and the future of the world and the value of inclusion, but asking someone, Are you willing to participate in this and use your talents for this?
“Yes, because you have talents.”
Julie 35:28
“That’s what they’ve been waiting for, Jean—they’ve been waiting for an invitation. I thought the invitation was delivered a long time ago, but apparently it was not received.”
Jean 35:39
“Invitation is blatantly obvious, which is why I never—literally, I'm very serious—it never occurred to me to make it. Did not ask.”
Julie 35:49
“It did not occur to me either. I spent 10 years in this work, studying allyship for like the last nine.
“And so this full circle for me—the first 2016 project work—and so we're back at it. I just thought after the election, I'll just write a new edition of my book about men as allies.
“And what I quickly realized after 50 hours of interviews and 70 different sources that I found—they didn't get the invitation. They didn’t feel included in inclusion work. And it pains me, as someone talking about it.
“Because I didn’t feel that in any room I was in and I, like you, was like, What? Huh? And then I heard stories, and there was such consistency in the stories of people that I've had as allies in my life—white men that have gone to bat for me, that have made sure I was included. They've gotten me promotions, helped me start my business, helped me teach at university.
“And I said, Yeah, this happened. And I didn't like it. And these are the good guys saying that.
“So yeah, our work isn’t perfect. It’s never been perfect. I don’t think anyone’s to blame for it. But as we clean this mess up and climb out of this hole—eventually—we are going to need the help of people with power, especially dominant group members, to get there.
“We're not going to be able to get there without them.”
Jean 37:20
“Well, that’s the irony. All the people of color and feminist women of whatever color wanting to tell people off to make them change—it just frustrates me no end.”
Julie 37:34
“I wish it worked, because it feels really self-righteous and it really helps me take out my negative energy.
“Instead, I've found other emotional releases—like screaming. I really enjoy the leaf blower yoga. Like, there are things—rather than screaming at somebody, I can scream in my bassinet.”
Jean 37:56
“Well, yeah, you said, Hey, pause and take a walk. You know, I'm at my end, what I can deliver competently. And so I'll take a walk. To me, that’s a logical next step.
“Okay, before I want to talk about—you said in a recent Forbes article how organizations are changing their terminology. And it’s not that DEI is going anywhere. It’s what you’re saying—it’s that it’s transmuting. People are figuring out how to do it in this climate, and it’s embedded in many organizations. Could you elaborate on that and give people some hope?”
Julie 38:44
“Yeah, yeah, it is. One of my friends, a professor over in Denmark—she says stealth mode, which in gaming terms is like where you try not to be seen until you want to be seen.
“I was like, that's a good analogy. That is what a lot of organizations are doing.
“Good news, bad news. Good news is they're keeping it internal. They’re doing more systems work, which is a lot less sexy than bold proclamations and donations and training programs—but it’s the right kind of work that needs to be done.
“We need to debias our hiring systems. We need to debias our promotion systems. We need to make equitable criteria and objective criteria and diversify our recruiting pools. All of those things are necessary work—and not exciting work. So that’s what organizations that remain committed to inclusion are focused on.
“The bad side to that though is that we're losing visibility to the work. We’re losing new research, new case studies. I’m seeing it day by day in my Forbes column—I used to get 20 pitches a week, easily, with great new research, new studies, case studies at companies. Now? Like two.
“Oh, no kidding. All happened in 2025.
“And that’s concerning to me. We need stories. We need data. We need to know what’s happening. And it’s happening behind closed doors right now.
“I have to believe good things are happening behind those closed doors. But people like us, that study the work and use that research to make recommendations to other clients—we’re just losing a lot of intel right now.”
Jean 40:36
“Oh my goodness. I had thought of it in terms of defunding—what’s happening at a federal level—but it never occurred to me that that means that the research itself is going underground.”
Julie 40:50
“Yep, yep. Defunding impacts the research too.
“And no one wants to be vocal against him right now, because then you’re his next target. Even if it’s valid research—it’s just let’s keep it under the radar.”
Jean
OK, you said "debias hiring." Can you talk about what that looks like?
Julie (41:15)
“Yeah. The hiring process, as it exists in most organizations, is full of opportunities to either perpetuate bias or interrupt it. One critical opportunity is ensuring that there are objective criteria used to evaluate candidates.
“You’d be shocked—research shows most people make hiring decisions based on who they’d like to spend time with outside of work. That’s not hiring for skill; that’s hiring a friend. Do you want to work with only your friends? Or do you want someone who can actually do the job?
“One of my favorite ways to debias the process is to remove the “same school as me,” “I know their mom,” or other subjective, unrelated criteria.
“For example, when I was in consulting, we gave candidates a spreadsheet and asked them to summarize the data in a presentation—something we’d expect them to do in the first 90 days of the job. If they couldn’t do that task, we didn’t hire them. If they excelled, they rose to the top. That kind of task-based assessment is a fair, job-relevant measure that eliminates a lot of noise.
“Another big issue is where companies recruit from. Most organizations don’t diversify their sourcing. They go to the same job boards, the same few colleges. And let’s be honest, historically Black colleges and universities don’t usually make those lists. Ivy League schools—riddled with privilege—do. And I’m not saying there’s something wrong with any specific school, but if you keep going to the same places, you’ll keep getting the same kinds of candidates.
“So post your jobs in new places. Ask employees from underrepresented backgrounds to share openings in their networks. People of diverse identities know others with diverse identities.
“And hiring managers should be encouraged to ask, What skill set or perspective is missing from our team? Not just “Who feels like us?” That “culture fit” mentality is code for “same as me,” and that only perpetuates the status quo.
“The good news? All of this leads to better business outcomes—higher retention, better engagement, stronger promotion pipelines. This isn’t about sacrificing performance. “Done right, inclusive hiring drives success.
Jean (44:04)
“That’s a lot. And it brings me to the other bookend—the exit door.
“So, when you say ‘be objective’ and ‘round out the skill set,’ you’re saying: don’t ask diversity questions that are borderline illegal. Just be intentional about what you’re looking for, and make sure you’re not hiring a bunch of mini-mes. That’s clear.
“But here’s the other end: I’ve seen people—especially people of color—who believe they’re doing great, but their manager doesn’t think so. Or sometimes, a white woman thinks she’s excelling, and her boss disagrees.
“Is that about fit? Or is it about actual competence? How do you address that kind of disconnect?
Julie (45:37)
We have data on this: people of color, women, and others from historically marginalized groups are less likely to get meaningful, equitable feedback.
“So that “Is she it or not?” conversation—it’s often a mismatch caused by silence. These employees aren’t getting the input they need to grow or the visibility they need to be considered for promotions.
“And let’s not forget the “mini-me” problem you mentioned. We like to promote people who remind us of ourselves.
“Back when I was in corporate, I drank more beer, watched more sports, and played more golf than I ever wanted to—just to fit in. And that gets exhausting.
“When managers lack exposure or confidence in giving feedback across difference, they hesitate to assign challenging work. That kind of hesitation disproportionately affects people from underrepresented groups. We miss chances to stretch and grow talent just because we’re not sure “how they’ll take it” or we’re afraid of saying the wrong thing.
“All of that—the feedback gap, the exposure gap, the assignment gap—adds up. It limits access to promotions. It narrows the pipeline. It creates an uneven playing field.
Jean (47:05)
And here’s the crux: How much do I have to change—to twist myself into your cultural norms—just to be seen as competent? Just to belong in a space that no one ever said had to work that way?
How much do I have to smile, grin, and bear it?
Julie (47:24)
“It’s exhausting. People call it code-switching. Or covering.
“We minimize or exaggerate parts of ourselves to fit into a dominant culture that wasn’t designed for us.
“And you’re right—dominant group members often have no idea what we’re doing to survive.
“They're shocked: “Wait, you did what?”
“They’ve never had to twist themselves like that, and that’s a kind of privilege—mental and emotional bandwidth that we don’t have.
“We spend so much headspace on:
“All of that brainpower could be going toward better work, more ideas, deeper contributions. But instead, it’s spent managing perception.
“And it’s not just a personal loss. It’s an organizational loss. You lose productivity. You lose creativity. You lose innovation. That’s why this does matter for business outcomes.
“And that brings us full circle, back to boundaries. At some point, I realized—if I wake up one more Monday morning puking into my toilet because I have to go to work—I cannot go back to that place. And yes, that really happened.
“I used to hear people say, “I’m excited to go to work tomorrow,” and I’d think, Why would you lie about that?
“It hadn’t occurred to me that some people feel safe at work.
“I didn’t. My body was telling me something my brain was trying to ignore.
“Not everyone has the luxury to quit or change industries. I get that. But even if you can’t leave right away, listen to your body. If you don’t, it will catch up with you. Your physical health is too precious to sacrifice for any job.
Jean (49:21)
“This has been so rich. You’re a wealth of information—and it’s clear that what you share comes not just from research, but from your own lived, tearful experiences. That’s the most credible place to speak from.
“Is there anything else you’d like listeners to walk away with?
Julie (49:55)
“Yeah, a couple of things.
“If you want to learn more, I write regularly for Forbes—just search “Julie Kratz,” K-R-A-T-Z. I usually publish at least once a week, sometimes more. I share new research, practical tips, and interviews with experts.
“You can also visit our website: nextpivotpoint.com. There’s a free Allyship Training video there—it comes with a workbook and works great as a lunch-and-learn or team offsite tool.
“And one more thing: we’re celebrating International Allyship Day on August 8th. Invite your allies! It’s a great entry point for meaningful conversations. All the details are on the website.
Jean (51:02)
“And if you could leave us with one takeaway—one action step—what would it be?
Julie (51:11)
“We talked earlier about bridging—about curiosity and the idea from Monica Guzman: “I never thought of it that way.”
“So here’s my challenge:
Ask yourself, Who could I have an “I never thought of it that way” conversation with this week?
“Just one person.
“Start there. Because those conversations are where empathy grows. And empathy is the root of real, sustainable change.
We are a leadership development firm that helps people and organizations create resilient, sustainable, multicultural, and inclusive settings. The ability to lead consciously can help you gain true awareness and earn the respect and trust of others.
It’s the assumptions we have about people’s lives that are the biggest obstacles to growth, awareness, and success. We help you understand how those assumptions are preventing you from becoming the best you can be as an organization, an inclusive leader, and a person.
